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If you have not been keeping up to date with the discussion in the Designer Dogs discussion take a read through here. Since that discussion I have been reading a little both online and off line as well as general discussion with my better half and that has led to this post.

The question I'd like to pose and start discussion on is not about designer dogs but to discuss function vs show, what is better for the dog and what should judges be looking for in all dogs they are judging on?

It is my hope that all breeders breed only in the best interest of the dog and the breed and to preserve the breed and not alter it. However in what I have been reading locally and overseas and also what we have been seeing at recent local dog shows does raise a few concerns. As has also been pointed out by other members in the above discussions is the shrinking gene pool of dogs being used for breeding which as rightly pointed out comes with its own set of issues.

Just so we are all clear I am not a judge and I have no specific knowledge on why a judge will judge one way or the other. If your a judge I'd like your take on this and hopefully some information from your view as to what a judge should or should not be looking for in all breeds.

We currently have Border Collies and a Shar-Pei and our BC's are quite different as one is from show lines and one is from working lines so some differences are to be expected. Having said that we have noted in recent shows some BC's that in our view are altering the dog too far and it is being bred purely for show and no (or little) regard for function and it would appear that this is being favoured by the judges (at those shows). It was to us such a surprise that it was at the latest show we decided if we were to look for another BC it would come from working lines (farm) due to the show lines being bred for show only.

Now my comments above are only on one breed but I have read similar issues in many breeds and I wonder what needs to be done (if anything). Who is to blame or is there any blame to be made? At what point do we say enough is enough the dog has altered too far from a functioning breed as to what it was initially bred for? How well are the accepted standards used and followed by both breeders and judges for shows?

Yes its an open question to hopefully get you thinking and make some comment and I look forward to all contributions that I may then compile into a summary article that hopefully can be used widely.

Cheers

Greg

Hi Greg

Firstly I am not a conformation judge, but do have many years experience with working dogs. I have been an obedience judge since 1994 and an agility and endurance judge since 1995. I have been involved in conformation since 1993. I now own and breed Belgian Shepherds.

I firmly believe that you cannot have form [conformation] without function. The two go hand in hand. I want a dog that can move in a way that enables it to do the job it was originally bred for. In saying that it MUST also be a good representative of the breed it is representing. I don't want a BSD that moves like a GSD. I don't want a BC that moves like a OES.

I think the two are very important and judges should consider both things as being equally important when judging, especially the working, utility and sporting breeds

I could rant on about this for ages as it is a pet subject of mine

Regards
Cindy Didsman

Cindy, by all means 'rant '

I agree with what your saying and just hope that when all judges 'judge' they look at the dog from both sides of that fence (if I may call it that) and not lean heavily in either direction but keep the balance between the two.

My concern, and reason for the best was two fold, a) to spark some discussion and b) our own perceptions of judging of late at some shows we have been to that 'seem' to be more focused on look than function. To the point of some breeds look awkward and 'modified'

So thanks for your reply and as said ranting is allowed , and hopefully it might get a few more to openly discuss the issue.

Cheers

Greg

I think all breeds Judges have an incredibly difficult job to make judgement on 150 odd different breeds in a 3 minute stint in the ring. If they are not completely familiar with a particular breed, which they cannot be with all of them.
Function to us is along with temperament of paramount import however the judge generally only has the 20-30 second glimpse of movement and yet maybe 2 or 3 times that to see the dog in the stack and I think mostly the picture the eye beholds gives the edge particularly if the judge is not completely familiar with the breed.
This is one reason we place more importance and credence on a specialty critique than we do all breeds results
but that does not mean we are denigrating the job all breed judges do, I think in the main they do their best and better judging comes with more experience, for those that are willing to learn!

Greg
Coalfire Rottweilers

I agree with cindy that form does = function.

A correctly conformed dog is able to perform its purpose and it is the amount of training and dedication that goes into the dog that affects its final ability to perform at its peak.

As some are aware here I am one of those dreaded boxer people that have dared to taint my bloodlines by bringing in a bitch that carries the Natural Bobtail Gene. Which is of course a 7th Generation Boxer x Corgi.
However understanding the genetics involved with breeding any breed of dog means that you should also be able to understand & accept that by Gen 7 there is less than 1% of the introduced breed (in this case Corgi) left. However we have recently faced the FCI throwing out that the Bobtail is now no longer recognised under its standard, and we have also seen the National Boxer Club fail at its recent biannual meeting in getting the ANKC to switch to the FCI standard instead of the UK standard.

I do have a point... Haha

Over the recent weeks I have watched on several lists Bobtail enthusiasts get called DD breeders attacked for not providing consistency to the breed in type etc etc. Yet even these older "traditional breeders" bring into the country dogs with a Grade 1 murmur bypassing this for the fact that the dog is flashy & pleasing to the eye, hence a visual winner in the ring, however the murmur will eventually affect ability to function.

However I have spoken to several Euro breeders who do not consider Litters to be worthy of the showring unless ALL pups in the litter meet conformation & function & who will in fact pet home an entire litter if there is two in the litter who do not cut the grade.

Perhaps if we had the same dedication & ability to do this here we would again see form- function - winning in the show ring.

Huh the only way you will EVER see that is working conformation class - where the dog has to show it can do its job and then be judged on its conformation, AFTER IT HAS WORKED.

Difficult?? yes, impossible, probably, wishful YES!

Imapetal who has WORKING hunting terriers

This is my first time on sending a reply on this site. I find this subject interesting as i attended a specialty in Sydney recently, where the USA Judge judged the gaited dogs on the side only. This is for a Rhodesian Ridgeback. I have been told some overseas judges only judge on the side.

I believe that form and function are paramount for assessing dogs in the show ring. Unfortunately, politics rears its ugly head all too often and dogs are judged by whomever is holding the lead! I have Vizslas, traditionally a working gundog. Form and Function should be equal in their assessment. Without one you don't have the other.
Michael
Abbiestar Hungarian Vizslas www.abbiestar.net

Michael

My sentiments as well, my fear however is (and this is as you know a touchy subject) that many show results lean more towards the form rather than the function. I am not saying that dogs shown and won should or should not have as that is not my call. My point however is that I wonder how well those dogs would perform in their functional purpose. For me personally it is related to Border Collies but looking across the board at most breeds I believe function is not given enough credit or weight in the show ring.

Cheers

Hey I'm back!

Well for me before I get a new dog, I always go for the perfect temperament 1st then 2nd comes function & brains then the last is the conformation & beauty of the dog. All three of my dogs have been highly trained for OB, tricks, canine musical freestyle & as well as Agility & Flyball. My cream colored Golden & Dalmatian go for shows too. I have never believed in shows the last time because in my country Malaysia, show dogs are treated more like trophy dogs or as accessories unlike like in America or other countries. Show dogs in my country must only be perfect in terms of conformation, must be clean at all times & must look good. That's all! Seriously, none of them train their dogs so the show dogs are just, vegetable dogs. It's always nice to have a beautiful dog but it's hopeless if it knows nothing. The dogs were bred for a "purpose". If a dog doesn't get a chance to be a real DOG to roll in mud, get dirty & smelly or even use it's nose to sniff things in the outside world coz it's really exciting for the dog, then I think it's just not having a very great life.

You see, Conformation Shows are conformation shows. They will only look at the dogs beauty. Ofcourse in some breeds like the German Shepperds, the judges would always prefer to see some fire in the dog. There's no time to watch what the dog can do coz this is no OB trial or tricks show. Conformation show is strictly for beauty only. The only way to see the dog's function or how much brains it has is that the dog has to be entered for OB, Agility or Schutzhund trial.

So anyway, brains & function are much much more important than beauty but it's always nice to have both.

Melissa & the Three Stooges
Website: www.ambers-diary.blogspot.com